Belgrade's Decision Was Wise

A TV commentator said in the Zagreb Globus after the Croatian Operation Storm the following: "The Serbs have left. Forever, it seems. I can't believe it!" Is this a time of joy for Croatia, we asked Croatian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mate Granic, in his exclusive interview for Vreme.

"No. Frankly, we are happy that this area has been liberated and reintegrated in Croatia; the "Storm" operation began by calling on the Croatian Serbs to remain. But, all you need to do is look at the Belgrade press to see who organized the evacuation and how... In any case, the exodus was not organized by the Croatian authorities. During the three and half years of agonizing talks, Knin had never agreed to serious negotiations, it never agreed to be within the Republic of Croatia and seriously discuss what Croatia and the international community were offering. That is why my answer to your question is: yes, we are happy that this territory is reintegrated, but we would have been much happier had there been no victims, no exodus of the Serbian population and had they peacefully reintegrated and abided by the basic laws. Or, even better, had that been achieved by talks. "

You are saying that the Serbian side had never entered serious negotiations. Would Croatia have really agreed to give Knin a broad autonomy, monetary independence and all other stipulations set out in the Z-4 plan, or would have the Croatian side sooner or later ended the talks by launching "Storm"?

I believe that the people who had fled actually had not known what the constitutional law was offering them, what President Tudjman was offering them in his peace initiative, that they had not known what the international community the Kinkel-Juppet plan, for example, was offering them. We agreed to negotiate on the basis of the Z-4 plan which does not mean we agreed with all of its provisions; we would have never accepted a state within a state, because it always causes additional instability - both of the parent country and the region. Therefore, we were urging one national currency, the Croatian currency, but we were for extremely serious talks and had the most serious intentions to conduct them. However, you are aware that an agreement on Western Slavonija had been reached and that the people who had signed it were subsequently arrested and imprisoned. I know for a fact that President Tudjman believed everything could be resolved through negotiations.

You, however, do not think Croatia should now act toward Serbian refugees the way it once demanded the Croatian refugees should be treated - that these people be enabled safe return?

When the return of the refugees is in question, we are unanimous in our stand that all those who want to can return on an individual basis, those who accept Croatia as a state and who fulfill conditions to become Croatian citizens. Two projects are currently being elaborated: one is the humanitarian reunion of families and the other is the issue of enabling the return of those people who want to return. We conveyed the conditions for all of this to the international community.

What are the conditions?

They are quite simple: if humanitarian family reunion is in question, then it can be carried out through the bureau in Belgrade and the bureau for refugees and the banished; if people who want to return are in question, then they should submit their request to return through our consular offices and show some proof that they fulfilled the conditions...

Do these people have a place to return to at all after the looting of Serbian villages and the burning of Serbian houses?

The chief prerequisite is the establishment of comprehensive civilian power and the control of the liberated territory, as there have been incidents there. But the chief thing is that a large number of people took part in the armed actions against Croatia and that it should now be cleared up who has a right to amnesty and who does not. To make things worse, Mr. Martic is still saying a guerrilla war will be waged over the next fifty years and so on. I do not believe that this can harm that area in any way in the long run. However, threats of terrorist actions may considerably compromise the peace process. These reasons make us extremely wary. Finally, it should be noted that the refugee issue will be one of the key questions at the head of state peace conference which is to begin late this month, probably on October 31. The question of Serbian refugees will be resolved in the context of all Croatian refugees and all refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina. I am deeply convinced that Croatia and Yugoslavia will soon restore their relations to normal.

What about the other measures the Croatian Government has adopted in the meantime, measures which directly render difficult or prevent the refugees' return? The Provision on the super-sonic "temporary appropriation" of Serbian property in Croatia, which even the world lawyers qualify as a gross violation of the right to private property, something the West is extremely sensitive to?

We obviously had to place the abandoned property under the state's protection because there had been cases of deliberate destruction and deliberate burning. There was looting, raw crime. There were some much graver incidents, even murders. We most sharply condemn that. We had an item on the agenda of today's closed government session and our police minister informed us about that; the sharpest measures of investigation have been taken and all the perpetrators are being prosecuted. Over 600 proceedings against people charged with various crimes have been raised so far. That figure will be higher by the time all the cases are resolved. We also reinforced the police in that area in order to restore the situation to normal. So, we are not turning a blind eye, rather, we are prepared to firmly fight and restore law and order.

Does this mean Croatia will respect the private property both of Serbs from Croatia and of those living in Yugoslavia?

That is a different issue. Regarding the Croatian Serbs, Croatia adopted a priority decision to protect their property, because it was the only possible way to prevent devastation. Two things should be distinguished: temporary ceding of property, because that is the only way to accommodate our refugees, who currently number 415,000. The issue of ownership is an altogether different subject here. I am sure that this question will be resolved by common effort the moment an agreement is signed on mutual recognition, peaceful reintegration, opening of all communications: highway, railway, gas pipeline, air traffic, telecommunications..

So, this property still has not been nationalized, expropriated, or, as the Croatian magazine Banka writes, placed under the "revolutionary jurisdiction of the Communist system"...?

No. Absolutely not. The property has been placed under the state's protection. The Government was forced to adopt the Provision because there was a lot of destruction, looting of houses... Empty space is practically impossible to protect. We are talking here about 13,500 square kilometers and without the state's protection, it is practically impossible to safeguard it all.

So, there is a possibility to institute an option, similar to the Italian-Yugoslav Agreement of 1947, when the persons exercising the option were able to sell their property and take their money out through special accounts?

That will be a subject of discussion between Croatia and Yugoslavia. Succession, property, refugees... Do not forget - all destruction took place in Croatia, none in Serbia.

Has not Croatia copied the policy of administrative prevention of the refugees' return previously practiced by the Serbian side and so itself become an active accomplice in ethnic cleansing?

I do not agree. I most sharply condemn all forms of ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing in any shape or form is definitely not a composite part of Croatia's state policy. Its state policy is the absolute protection of both people and property and we firmly condemn the incidents which took place and of which we publicly speak of.

Some politicians within the Croatian Government, however, claim that the return of the Serbs who fled is unacceptable and would jeopardize Croatia's security?

Those are individual opinions. On the contrary, I think the Serbian ethnic community in Croatia or the Croatian minority in Serbia will not encounter major problems in the future, particularly if reintegration is achieved peacefully and when Croatia and Serbia restore their relations back to normal.

Was not the census in Croatia (scheduled for next April) called suddenly, actually legalizing the state created after the cleansing of the Serbian population by military activities "Flash" and "Storm"?

No, we need the census for some of our decisions, the functioning of the system and macro-planning. We need a regular census to see the actual demographic situation.

However, the percentage of the Serbs remaining in Croatia will influence the change in the demographic picture, and, subsequently, in the Parliament's composition. Decisions are already being taken on the new composition of the Parliament, with Serbs having barely five seats and Croats in the diaspora 12. Does this mean that everything has already been determined - that the number of seats in the Parliament has already been decided, which means that Serbs are not expected to return at a large scale?

The key agreement is the one on normalizing relations among the states.

According to the Helsinki Watch and other human rights organizations' data, gross violations of human rights, particularly of Serbs, are increasingly frequent in Croatia. What steps have you taken to prevent this?

A lot of pressure is currently exerted on Croatia. But recall all that happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the mass murders, what had happened in occupied Croatian territories... UNPROFOR and UNCRO have information about some 1,000 people missing over the past four years. Do not forget that there are more human rights and humanitarian organizations in Croatia than probably anywhere else in Europe. There are 308 of them in Croatia; we permitted all of them to conduct their activities, which is the best proof that we want to restore full civilian authority, full control as soon as possible. Stalling or buying time obviously do not lead anywhere.

However, right after the "Storm", when the Serbian population embarked on its exodus under a rain of shells, there were no observers...

There never are.

Of course not. But, many were fleeing from that same fear, nothing and no one to protect them. How does all this reflect upon the talks with Serbs in Eastern Slavionija, what guarantees are you offering them?

We are on the right track to reach an agreement on Eastern Slavonija for that reason precisely. The approach to the talks is for now much more serious, the United States and the European Union are involved in them and acting as guarantors, the international community is the guarantee. Croatia is prepared for serious talks and I think this is the best time for Serbs in Eastern Slavonija, Baranja and western Srem to reach an agreement and agree to peaceful reintegration. This would lead to the normalization of Croatian-Serbian relations, to mutual recognition and speed up the resolution of all remaining open questions. You know that 210,000 houses were razed in Croatia in 1991, not to mention the number of killed and missing people. The wounds are deep, but we know that peaceful reintegration and normalization of relations is the only guarantee for stability in the region.

Do you respect Yugoslavia's decision to hold back and not involve itself during the "Storm"?

That was a wise and rational decision. There had been no agreements between Belgrade and Zagreb. Nor talks. I already told Die Welt that the issue would not help the Serbs there either logistically, politically, economically or militarily. Some assessed that the Bosnian Serbs would probably involve themselves. We had not intended to go after Eastern Slavonija during the Storm, but, in order to prevent the other involvement of the other side (and there had been indications of an intervention), we reinforced our troops in that area, although we had not seriously counted on Yugoslavia, rather on the Bosnian Serbs. Belgrade first sent Mrksic and all the others, paid for everything and sent all the military material; therefore, Belgrade had undoubtedly aided Knin and they were able to survive only thanks to Belgrade's comprehensive support. So, all we requested of Belgrade was to stop helping them because they would then take the talks seriously. While Belgrade was helping them, the so-called Krajina existed.

What does the deal in Bosnia look like? Won't the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation be an unusual state with two of its major entities gravitating more towards their neighboring parent countries than their own center?

As there still is no Constitution, it is difficult to comment upon what that state will finally look like. According to what has been agreed in Geneva, there will obviously be two strong entities, the Bosnian-Croatian and the Serbian, which will have the right to develop relations with neighboring states, but not the right to secession.

Does this mean that the Croats (as well as the Serbs) will have used up their right to self-determination and secession in Bosnia if this latest agreement is implemented?

That is the idea now. According to the current version of the agreement, neither the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation nor the Serbian entity will have the right to secession. Croatia supported this, Bosnia-Herzegovina recognized it, it only remains for Belgrade to support it.

Nations in these parts, particularly Serbs and Croats, have found themselves twice in this century waging a tragic, we might even say fratricidal, war against each other. What is your opinion of Serbo-Croatian future relations?

I wish this is their last war and that south-east Europe follows Scandinavia's suit. That their relations be like those between the French and the Germans or the French and the English. This means that their relations return to normal completely, and that the next period is marked by European integrations, of each individual state of course; that the disarmament process and strong economic cooperation between Yugoslavia and Croatia begin. And, there is no doubt that the problem of the missing people (who number 2,850) and the issue of liberating all prisoners must be resolved in order to restore trust. The fate of these people should be established. In any case, I believe this war is drawing to an end both in Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.