Interview: Mira Markovic (II)

VREME: Do you believe that the SPS activists, who are guarding the residency in Uzicka street, can prevent the police in case a command is issued to arrest Slobodan? Can the recipe from Croatia be copied in Serbia today - the case of general Norac, which made one part of Croatia rise to its feet, demonstrating and blocking traffic, after which it was decided that he wouldn't be extradited to The Hague?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I have said a thousand times that the court in The Hague is the Gestapo of our times, and that its prison is a concentration camp for Serbs. A few Croats or Muslims - only to pull wool over the eyes of the world. The largest number of those who are there are Serbs, it seems as though mostly Serbs extradited them. I don't know whether we always were such a nation, or have we only become that now. Whatever, the Croats have shown that as a nation, they have more respect for themselves, they are a lot more united and very sensitive to the phenomenon of treason.

And as far as my husband's responsibility is concerned in connection to the wars outside of Serbia, which Serbs waged in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, I truly do not see it. Neither as charges for the international, nor charges for the Yugoslav court. I see his role as the role of a man who, in the position which he found himself in, had maximally protected the interests of the Serbian people. First of all, with extensive diplomatic activities, devoted for years to negotiations with all those who could contribute in the least bit to peace in Croatia and Bosnia and to the interest of the Serbian people who lived there. Furthermore, with huge financial aid which was going from Serbia under sanctions to Serbs outside of Serbia. And by the decision to accept and provide for over a million refugees in Serbia. The largest number of those refugees have received citizenship, employment, an apartment, all conditions for life just like all the other citizens in Serbia. For a certain time, a long time, the refugees were even privileged in comparison to the citizens of Serbia in all civil rights.

VREME: Carla del Ponte insists that your husband be extradited to the tribunal in The Hague, while the politicians from DOS are announcing court proceedings in Belgrade. How do you interpret those demands?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I think Slobodan has indebted the Serbian people with his enormous work, concern of over a decade and support which he had dedicated his life to between 1986 and 2000. To present such dedication to the interests of the nation as a crime can only be done by a person who is an enemy of this nation, even if he himself belongs to this nation.

As for the threats of arrest, a government which starts off with threats, arrests and court cases of the representatives of the previous government and people in general, i.e. a government which in its program has only violence over the people - has its name and last name in history. Let's say it has a few names. And there is only one which it certainly doesn't have - democratic. It doesn't have the very name which it has chosen to give itself. It seems to be the worst cynicism that the democratic government, following a decade spent in a battle to come to power, having stood for tolerance as its political and moral principle, is starting off with violence over people's opinions and over people's lives.

VREME: What would you tell Carla del Ponte - did your husband ever command ethnic cleansing, a relocation of the population in Bosnia, the bombardment of the cities (Dubrovnik, Vukovar, Sarajevo.) or any other similar thing?

MIRA MARKOVIC: If she believes that she has a mandate from a legal international institution to delve into such matters, let her look for the commanders and executors of ethnic cleansing in Croatia and Bosnia. The president of Serbia of those days, truly, had nothing to do with that story. What connections can there be between the president of Serbia and the bombardment of Dubrovnik, Sarajevo, Zadar, Vukovar in 1991? But someone, naturally, is connected to it. Those who had incited the wars in Croatia and Bosnia are responsible for them, together with those who had led them. If anyone should be put on trial for those wars, then, first of all, those outside of Yugoslavia should be tried for them, those who had urged the Yugoslav nations to hate and to wage wars, all within the framework of their plan to break Yugoslavia up. And afterwards, when civil war erupted in Croatia and Bosnia, what can be classified in the category of war crimes should be discussed and dealt with in Croatia and Bosnia. That is neither Belgrade's nor The Hague's issue.

>From my point of view, when talking about war, it is a crime in itself. Especially civil war. How is it that in a civil war one side is a criminal and the other a victim? Only women and children can be victims. Almost all women and all children. On top of that, I see a few women on the international scene who, with their political activities, have inflicted the greatest evil upon entire nations , wrapped in sorrow hundreds of thousands of mothers, are responsible for numerous children's graves. And in the name of their powerful countries and from their powerful positions those horrible female beings are accusing the defenders, heroes and patriots of the people they had committed crimes against or had inspired those crimes.

VREME: With each passing day it is more and more apparent that many of Kostica's stands - primarily in foreign policies and on the issue of Kosovo - don't differ all that much from the ones which your husband has. How do you view that paradox?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I cannot give a serious evaluation of president Kostunica's stands with regards to the interests of the Serbian people since I don't read the papers nor watch TV enough. Many of my friends say that in national issues he is close to the policies of SPS.

VREME: Is DOS on the right road now to resolving the issues of Kosovo, Montenegro and the three municipalities in southern Serbia?

MIRA MARKOVIC: From my point of view, DOS isn't on the road to resolving anything, except to empty the jails from Albanian terrorists and populate them with some Serbian patriots, fighters and heroes. Until now we haven't heard anything from them with regards to the concept of the economic and cultural development of society, nothing with regards to the management of international affairs, absolutely nothing is being said about a vision for the country in the next decade. What can and is the only thing we regularly hear from the new government is whom they will keep in detention, arrest, charge.

An unusual government for the 21st century, a rather morbid platform. If they remain on that platform, Kosovo shall be lost, the Albanian terrorist movement will move towards Sumadija, separatist aspirations will expand to Sandzak and Vojvodina. Montenegro, in Yugoslavia or outside of it, won't be able to avoid a territorial break up, internal conflicts and loss of national and historic identity.

VREME: You left the parliamentary session due to the Amnesty Law. Isn't that ironic - charges are being prepared against members of your family while people who were sentenced at the time when your husband was president of FRY are being amnestied?

MIRA MARKOVIC: With this shameful law, I've already said this, terrorists and separatists are being amnestied. While, at the same time, arrests and charges are being prepared for patriots. For the first time in its history, Serbia has such a government. If they have nothing against such a government now, the Serbs shouldn't question themselves in five years for having to wander the mountains and forests like the Kurds, hunted and exterminated like wild beasts.

VREME: Do you, for the acts which you are publicly being charged of, inciting war crimes in Bosnia, in Kosovo, in Croatia, for allegedly having organized assassinations - feel guilty?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I'm not sure that you are informed of all the charges against me. For now, they haven't accused me of inciting crimes in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. Since I had, luckily, written about all those events and took a public stand towards them while they were still ongoing, which was naturally risky, my stands have been well known throughout the Yugoslav public a long time ago. Throughout the foreign one too, since my books were translated into almost all languages of the world.

During those times, exactly due to my books, I was accused of the opposite - that I remained too tied to former Yugoslavia, that I expressed a dangerous misconception that Serbs, Croats and Muslims can live happily together in one country, that by standing up for peace I damaged the Serbian and, probably, other fighters in the wars for their just cause. In 1991 they accused me that I wasn't Serbian enough. This is the first time I hear that I am accused of being too Serbian. Everything is possible, this is the season of miracles.

VREME: Is there any room for your partial responsibility in the tragic events? Would you change some decisions today if you could?

MIRA MARKOVIC: My responsibility is enormous. I am responsible for having generally believed in people. Because I believed that leftists were brave, honest and united people. Because I believed people are grateful beings. I am responsible, as Ljubisa Ristic says, especially because I believed in tears. I am responsible because I didn't convince my son Marko that any good deed towards people would be returned with evil. Because I didn't prevent my husband from being a candidate for president of Serbia in 1991, which I was against. I am responsible because I believed that social was more important than personal and for having applied it in my life. I am responsible for having taught my children to be compassionate to anyone's suffering and to never reproach others when that compassion isn't returned.

I am responsible for not having made my husband choose between the fawning people and me. I am responsible for not having stayed at home and written, instead of spreading brotherhood and unity throughout Yugoslavia, half dead from fatigue. I am responsible for not having kicked the court jesters out of my house on time, when I realized that they were court jesters.

VREME: How do you see the future of our country?

MIRA MARKOVIC: That depends on who will be in power. If peace-loving, humane, educated, contemporary, tolerant, well mannered, brave, honest and modest people are in power, those who love their country and their people, respect other countries and people, understand the times they are living in - we will live in peace, our country will develop, it will be part of the world, we will rejoice in the new century.

However, if tyrants, revenge-loving, greedy, ill mannered, uneducated, corrupt, cowardly, primitive nationalists or fingered Europeans, frustrated women and perverted men are in power, we will cease to exist. We'll have "And once there was a people".

VREME: In your belief, what are the chances of Kosovo remaining part of Serbia and of FRY remaining as a country?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I have just answered that. With these existing policies we will lose Kosovo and other mutli-national regions in Serbia. FRY will, possibly, remain some kind of union of more states who will mutually regard each other over a shooting range.

And maybe it won't exist at all. Maybe it's better to separate all that can be separated of FRY's current territory. Maybe that absurd situation will open the eyes, at the very last moment, of this nation, of these people, to wizen up, to reconcile and unite, in order to survive. Or, at least before they draw their last breath.

VREME: Do you now, since Montenegro has also opted for a referendum on seceding from the federation, still believe in the Yugoslav idea and the possibility of a joint life with the nations of former Yugoslavia?

MIRA MARKOVIC: In times when all religions are allowed, let mine be allowed as well. My religion is Yugoslavia. Followed by mondialism, cosmopolitanism, a world without borders, the planet as a mutual home of all the people. That is a world which I believe has sense, it is the greatest worth, it is a logical and necessary future for mankind, if people care about life.

VREME: Do you see a possibility of some other kinds of coalitions in the near future - with certain parties from DOS? Do you think Kostunica could be president who would at the next elections hand over the mandate to a left from the center government, or is the gap between DOS and JUL-SPS too wide?

MIRA MARKOVIC: Personally, no alliances on this territory interest me anymore. I don't believe in them, nor will I take part in them. Comprehending history and the liberation of the impoverished nations and people from poverty, humiliation and ignorance, which I have devoted my life to, have stumbled here on the realizations and interests of the local grocery store. I find myself facing a decision to bid farewell to all those owners, regardless of their goods. The value which fills my life is outside of such goods.

The only alliance which has civilization reasons, which is essential in the historic sense and which I would take part in, is an international movement of resistance to world violence.

VREME: How do you live today - do you and your husband have freedom of movement? How do you experience the daily media speculation on where your children are located, especially Marko? You have parliamentary immunity - do you expect the new government to protect your family, husband and children from the overly curious public and from slander?

MIRA MARKOVIC: Our family is greatly endangered - physically, health-wise, morally.

I expected the president of Yugoslavia and the president of Serbia to take care of our family, where we will live, what we will live from, how we will live. That my children and I are enabled to work, and for all of us to move freely and to live safely. It is the duty of every president of a country to create conditions for maintaining the integrity and dignity of his predecessor. That's how things were done previously in history, this should especially be happening in today's world, in a European country.

VREME: You say that as of October 1 you are no longer receiving a salary either. Why? Have you thought about going back to the School of Natural Sciences, to your professorship?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I don't know why I haven't received my salary since Oct. 1. I have stopped going to the university - to hold lectures, when people from the streets started coming into the classroom where I was holding my lecture, foreign and domestic reporters, foreign and domestic newspaper photographers. The presence of a large number of people who weren't students has rendered the lecture senseless, and on top of that the students and I weren't secure. I will return to university when and if conditions are created for me to conduct lectures as I had previously done, as all my colleagues do.

VREME: You used to travel a lot before. Does it bother you that you are having difficulty walking around Belgrade, and that you can't leave the country?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I have stopped walking around Belgrade like before a long time ago. To be precise, from April 1990. And as far as travel outside of the country is concerned, I can travel to all countries apart from the European Union countries.

VREME: As of October 5, there has been a lot of public speculation on where Marko got the money for his bakery, Madonna disco, Bambiland?

MIRA MARKOVIC: Marko, with very modest means, which he earned from his rally driving activities, opened the Madonna disco club. That building on the outskirts of Pozarevac, which he leased, had a large parking lot for trucks. For the first year his main creation under the blue skies, between the improvised fence was good music and light effects. Which is why, from the very beginning, a few thousand people visited that disco club in the course of an evening. They came to that club from other cities as well, even from the other republics. His success had thousands of witnesses. He worked well and developed his business in front of the eyes of the entire city, which even those who don't like him can't dispute. And only the enemies of his father don't like him. No one would have any reason to hate him personally, since he is a very charming young man, who hasn't harmed anyone. On the contrary. He helped all those that he could. Marko's contribution is in raising the cultural standards in Pozarevac and for that, after all, he received this city's October award. However, many never forgave him his success because he was the president's son and they accused him of various petty and serious ugly things, of which he hadn't done a thing. Like, for example, a few years ago the print media wrote that Marko had ran down a child in Pozarevac. Everything was written about that child - the name and last name, address, the names of the parents etc. Only one small "detail" was left out - that that (of course not run over) child is the younger brother of Marko's wife Milica, i.e. the uncle to our grandson Marko.

VREME: Do you find it difficult that Marko is outside of the country and the family is split, or is that all for the better at this political moment?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I find everything difficult. But what is best for our family doesn't only depend on us. At least not for now.

VREME: It seems as though only Marija has been left alone. There is no Kosava, meaning there is no topic?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I doubt the good intentions towards Marija. They spend days looking for her sins in Kosava and they didn't find them. She had to say good-bye to Kosava, to avoid what happened to Marko with Madonna. There is no Madonna either, but Marko is still a topic. That is why I am suspicious of the mercy shown towards my Marija.

She built Kosava out of nothing. In a tiny room at the top of the Usce building, it was as hot as hell in summer, and as cold as a freezer in winter. When it rained, everything was drenched in water. They didn't even have money for Coca-Cola, let alone for salaries. Marija brought coffee and juice from home. They didn't even receive a license for a year. And they used to play the best music in Belgrade and later throughout Serbia. The Kosava radio station went on air on July 22, 1994 with Bijelo Dugme's song Yugoslavia. She returned Croatian pop music, singers from Sarajevo, the Yugoslav spirit to Belgrade and Serbia. The nationalists immediately, just like they did to me, accused her of not being Serbian enough. The young people of Belgrade and later throughout Serbia, however, accepted the spirit of Kosava as the spirit of the times which was close to them, as a civilized environment where they felt comfortable. A few years later Kosava TV, without conditions for being a real TV station because it didn't have the financial means for its own program, still had the best music and film program. Marija set herself a goal to wage a battle against kitsch in music and trashiness in movies. But, there is no more Kosava. The democratic government threatened to burn it down just like it burned down Madonna. They might be happy now, the only difficult thing is to explain to themselves what that happiness is made of.

VREME: Why do you think the new government has swooped down on the question of the purchase price of your house?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I have no idea. I expect them to, as you've put it, soon swoop down on my sandals, flower pots, glittery hair pins, tooth brushes. To send inspections to investigate where I got them - the sandals and hairpins, how many I have, whether anyone had given them to me and who, did I pay tax for them, have I, by owning them, violated the law and morality, threatened the safety of the country, the interest of the great powers.

VREME: You're cynical?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I'm ridiculing things, naturally. I'm ridiculing the reality which has degraded us historically, culturally and civilizationally.

VREME: Do you believe, therefore, that charges with regards to your house are inappropriate? Kostunica didn't want to move to Dedinje. Are you contemplating, after everything, to move from Dedinje?

MIRA MARKOVIC: No. Unless the democratic government decides we should live in Mala Krsna.

VREME: Is stirring up the issues of not only political but criminal responsibility of former top officials contributing to the stabilization of the country or is it introducing a new instability into society?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I'm afraid, unless this nation wizens up and the power of reason doesn't prevail in the government, this country can become the European Chile, and someone from the bloodthirsty part of the government - the European Pinochet.

VREME: Your husband isn't appearing in public, isn't answering accusations, isn't entering into debates with political qualifications. Why?

MIRA MARKOVIC: Because he is harboring a misconception that truth and justice will win of their own. He always comprehended things in this way. Since 1990, when accusations against him began, we are constantly in dispute over whether to react or not. I believe he should, as do the children as well. He believes that all of this that is mentioned in connection to him is so low and dirty that it is below all dignity to react to it. And he believes that all will fall into place. One day.

VREME: Still, have you contemplated hiring a lawyer and defending the good name of your family? (There was talk about Toma Fila, the lawyer of Jovanka Broz and of numerous sentenced people in The Hague - which was later denied?)

MIRA MARKOVIC: We might do that. Marko definitely. Milica and I would gladly do it. Slobodan and Marija are, somehow, disinterested.

VREME: Can you imagine that leftist parties could soon take over the government and lead the country?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I believed it logical and necessary for left parties to be united. And I have done a lot to contribute to that belief. I wrote, spoke, I did everything I could. When success was within our reach, the left parties broke apart, some in a very unfriendly way, others in a rather unfriendly way. Whether because some influential officials of those parties were uneducated people or envious people is no longer important now. At least not for me.

Three left-wing parties in the 2000 federal elections in Yugoslavia won the elections and lost power. It was their own fault.

VREME: What do you mean - won the elections and lost power? And what more could they have done?

MIRA MARKOVIC: JUL and SPS had a joint ballot for the presidential, federal and local elections last September. With the Socialist Party of Montenegro we had a joint candidate for the president of Yugoslavia. Those three parties of the left won the elections. They had the majority in parliament which is made up of 76 representatives, and 70 are needed for a majority. However, even though these three left parties won the elections, they lost power. That happened because, after the new president of Yugoslavia took office, the Socialist Party of Montenegro expressed a wish, i.e. laid down a condition, to remain in coalition with SPS but without JUL, just like it expressed a demand that JUL not be part of the federal government. JUL agreed to all of it. The coalition with SPS and JUL was severed and JUL promised that it wouldn't enter into the federal government. Since SPS without JUL didn't have enough seats to form a majority in the federal parliament with the Socialist Party of Montenegro, it requested JUL to renounce its ten representative seats, i.e. to hand them over to the Socialist Party of Serbia. JUL even agreed to that. And then the Socialist Party of Montenegro told SPS that it doesn't want a coalition with them either. That it is entering into a coalition with DOS. That is how the great leftist bloc was broken up. Through the fault of the left.

That is why I no longer even contemplate nor intend to work on an alliance with the left parties in this country. My efforts to unite the left in view of its great historic mission, which it claims it is determined upon, were outvoted by petty jealousies, seasonal interests, certain crude hatred. One great idea, one progressive chance, was beaten by the interests and conceit of such a cheap composition that I can't even comment on it.

And if the leftist parties unite and take over the government in this country one day - I wish them well.

VREME: Finally, when we spoke for the first time ten years ago, you said you wouldn't like to be remembered "as a wife of a Balkans politician". How would you like to be remembered, and how would you like your husband to be remembered?

MIRA MARKOVIC: My husband, as a politician who had no intention of being in politics. As a statesman, who didn't like power. As a national fighter, who was admired by the entire patriotic world. As head of state, whom larger countries wished to have and who probably should have been head of another state, greater and more thankful. As a modest, courageous, energetic and cordial man. As the most attached man to his family in the world.

And I, exclusively as a fighter, without any interest in the heritage of victory, if I achieve it. A battle is my world. I don't fare well in victory. After one concluded battle, I moved on to places where another one was waged. Thus traveling, I lost a lot of friends. The majority, after a won battle, remained to distribute the spoils, to celebrate victory and to demobilize. I was a burden to them, and they were strangers to me.

VREME: The president of Serbia Milan Milutinovic said that he collects and likes Corax's cartoons, while Corax's new target - president Kostunica - recently stated that his pen is dabbling in internal politics too much and that all should turn towards the "enemies from outside". Have you seen any of Corax's political cartoons, did you find them witty?

MIRA MARKOVIC: I've seen many. I am the worst character in them. And he is the worst cartoonist in the world. He insulted me for no reason. If he truly is made up of such spite, why didn't he use it against a man?

I doubt whether the president of Serbia Milan Milutinovic would have been delighted with his cartoons and collected them if he had been presented in a bad light in them. I, for example, would have been negatively disposed towards a cartoonist who presented president Milutinovic unpleasantly, just as the one you mention had unpleasantly presented me. Out of solidarity with him.

Ah, solidarity. It should have been the left parties' best side. And it has turned out to be the worst. After everything, really, I don't know whether I will be a leftist a second time.

VREME: Many believe that Borisav Jovic's book (The Last Days of SFRY) might possibly be used as evidence against Slobodan Milosevic, since it speaks of specific decisions which he took part in, and which lead to the collapse of SFRY.

MIRA MARKOVIC: No one believes that that book can be used as evidence in connection to anything that has to do with Slobodan Milosevic. That book only serves as evidence that books are rarely read here, even from the field of intrigue, and it is also evidence that there are none, especially not draconian penalties, for forgery.

Naturally, I didn't read that book. However, at the time when someone brought that book to our house, while I was waiting for a phone call, I saw it on the table. I opened it and noticed that it looked like a diary. Since I dearly love dates, I wanted to see what a certain wonderful day in my life, a certain December 31, a wonderful New Year's Eve celebration, looked like in the life of B.J. We departed for that New Year's Eve celebration four days in advance, with a large group. And in that book B.J. writes how on that day he went with my husband to visit one, then important, political man in Serbia for New Year's Eve drinks and how Slobodan, in that company and on that day, over his New Year's Eve drink, ordered that all electric energy which was being delivered to Croatia be stopped. He, B.J., as a legalist and a proper man, reminded him that things didn't work that way, that it isn't the time nor place for such decisions, but the arrogant S.M., naturally, didn't hear his advice and ordered that his decision be carried out. The truth is that on that day S.M. and that important politician whom Slobodan and B.J. had allegedly visited for New Year's Eve drinks - were far away from Belgrade for the fourth consecutive day and, naturally, neither did they see nor talk to B.J. that day. From 1985 to 2000 we didn't celebrate a single New Year's Eve in Belgrade. We left for each New Year's Eve celebration a few days in advance and were always in the same company. Only, the author of this book wasn't aware of our habits in connection to New Year's Eve.

Afterwards, when I looked at the book more closely, I saw other similar "authentic" memories and similar moral lessons. So then, why are S.M.'s supporters angry at the false and horrible accusations against him from the "world"? In that sense, the members of this nation are successfully competing with the foreigners who are disposed in an unfriendly-like manner towards S.M.