Karadzic Was Right

Most journalists (mainly foreign) who still succeed in getting reports out of the hell-hole in Sarajevo, say that the Presidency and Government of the so-called state of Bosnia and Hercegovina (everything has long been "so-called" in Bosnia) have been working for months without a quorum and that, in the middle of war, this government has been without a Defence Minister for months. At best, say those informed, sessions of the Government are attended by three to four ministers - the others are outside the country, at a safe distance, where they carry out diplomatic battles, seek aid, buy weapons or establish Bosnian offices which could one day grow into embassies.

The Vice-President of the Bosnian Government, Muhamed Cengic, for the last six months has been unable to get into Sarajevo. He spends his time mainly in Istanbul where he represents the interests of the Bosnian Government. The Serbian media in Bosnia accused him recently of having fled to Istanbul with "an enormous amount of gold taken from Jajce which he uses to pay for weapons". Among the Moslems in Sarajevo it can be heard that Cengic is in Istanbul because he is no longer of importance to the Bosnian leadership (apart from Cengic, as the official representative of the Bosnian government, Silajdzic often comes to Turkey for talks and this can be interpreted as a sign of distrust), while others state that the presence of the Vice-President in Turkey is of exceptional importance to the "Moslem cause". Cengic himself, in an interview to VREME carried out recently in Skopje, says that he is in Istanbul primarily to organize humanitarian aid. This is what brought him to Macedonia where there is a large number of Moslem refugees. To the comment that the Bosnian Government hardly exists and that it actually controls a very small part of the former Bosnia and Hercegovina, Cengic answers:

" The President of the Government, Pelivan, probably knows at all times where his ministers are, even though communication with them is sometimes almost impossible. Sarajevo has been surrounded for months and it is difficult to enter the city. I don't know how often the premier is able to get the opinions of all the ministers. With regard to the territory we control, it is much larger than people think. First of all, it is not true that Serbs hold 70 percent of the territory. Our Government doesn't control only part of the territory held by Karadzic's forces. We have control over the part of B&H held by the Croats. The President of the Government is a Croat, and in the Government and Presidency there are still Serbs.

The statement that your Government controls Herzegovina and other "Croat territory" is contrary to the reports which say that the symbols and flags of the Bosnian state can no longer be seen in Hercegovina, but that Croatian flags are present.

Recently I passed through a good portion of Hercegovina and much of what you say is true. I spoke about this with President Izetbegovic and other officials and we agreed that it is mostly a question of the willfulness of certain individuals. We don't want to give too much importance to this at the moment and give rise to controversy, but we concluded that the system of power there must be tightened a little. It is true, however, that our Government and President Izetbegovic himself missed the opportunity to react decisively when the SDS (Serbian Democratic Party) formed its first SAO (Serbian Autonomous Region), which could and should have been prevented before the outbreak of war. Izetbegovic didn't react then because he feared greater clashes between the people, just as now he fears the same thing could happen in Hercegovina. I was then for a fight to the end and the prevention of the formation of the so-called SAO Trebinje. If we had prevented this, maybe today we wouldn't be at war. I have heard that the creator of this SAO, Bozidar Vucurevic, had to leave his home recently.

It is too late now for many things. For example, for B&H to be the civil state President Izetbegovic often speaks of, as opposed to an ethnic state, even though he was the first to form a national party...

The concept of a civil state should have been insisted on much more than it was. Everyone should have been involved, and there were many, who wanted to work for this, politicians and intellectuals from all over Europe should have been called to help and prevent the breaking up of that which couldn't be broken up without violence. All of us who were at the top of the political scene then were quite inexperienced. Who could have supposed that someone in the "interests" of his own nation would annihilate another, his own as well.

If the idea of a civil state has failed, what is the solution for B&H? The Serbian and Croatian sides have nothing against cantonization, and sometimes, admittedly rarely, mention a protectorate.

Unfortunately, it is maybe too late now for a solution. Sometimes it seems to me that another 200,000 or 300,000 people will have to die before anyone remembers that Bosnia should be made a protectorate. I spoke in favor of something like this before the war. I suggested that all three sides choose one friendly country to represent their interests and help begin talks about the future. These countries could have been Turkey, France and Germany. If this had happened, most probably there wouldn't have been a war. Even today I think this to be the best solution of all those offered. But, in order to do something like this, it would first be necessary to punish all those responsible for this war.

The talks in Geneva have begun to give some results, but will most probably resemble a political marathon. There has been talk these days that the Moslem side may leave the talks.

All these conferences seem a little frivolous. I cannot see anyone among their participants who can prevent the killing of tens and hundreds of thousands of people. Talks are held between those who hate each other and it is their duty to find a solution.

Do you mean participants from all three sides?

Yes, all three. I don't believe, in any case, that the delegation of the B&H state will pull out of the talks, unless the talks become even less serious than they have been up to now. We want the war to stop, but Bosnia must be free. Izetbegovic has often said that we must negotiate even with the devil himself if it brings about any results. But I myself don't see that Karadzic's talks are leading to a solution. He doesn't take part seriously and is very theatrical. At the same time, Moslems have undergone such suffering that it is hard to accept negotiations, particularly those which merely have to confirm the status quo.

The demand to allow the Moslem side the import of weapons cannot help much the efforts made for peace. In spite of the embargo, it is obvious that weapons are coming in, mostly, it seems, from Islamic countries.

Alija Izetbegovic never wanted war. He has said this so often that now there are many Moslems who hold it against him that he hasn't led them well and didn't let them know in time what was being prepared for them. At the beginning of the war the Moslems were caught completely unawares, unorganized and unarmed. The fact that a few of them had automatic guns does not mean they were all armed. We have entered the sixth month of war and it is normal that the Moslems have organized themselves in the meantime, as has the B&H army. There are Serbs and Croats in it. We are naturally stronger each day. We captured some of our weapons, some we took from the ammunition and weapon stores of the Territorial Defence, and of course some is sent to us. I wouldn't say by Islamic countries, but rather countries that trade in arms. Our government cannot be expected to stand and say - everything's OK - when tens of thousands of people have been killed and so much territory has been ethnically cleansed.

Do you believe that the war in B&H is primarily a result of an agreement between Milosevic and Tudjman regarding the division of territory at the expense of the Moslems? At one time this was an opportunity for both of them to justify themselves. Every day there is more and more proof of Serbo-Croat cooperation on this plan.

It is absolutely certain that Milosevic and Tudjman played the most important roles in the disintegration of Yugoslavia and creation of new states. Neither was satisfied with the borders of their national state and they wanted to expand them. It seems to me that Milosevic wanted a bit more, maybe because he had more force at his disposal, because he had the JNA under him. Whether the Moslems will be the only ones to pay the price in the end depends first of all on whether they feel they have to remain in Bosnia which, no matter what anyone else wants, will be theirs. I have met many Moslems who have become invalids in this war and are prepared, as soon as they recover, to return to the front. Reis el Ulema, who I met recently in Skopje and who himself is wounded, says that despite so much death in Sarajevo, there is no fear to go out onto the streets. Sarajevo must be the victor and it will.

Are you afraid of Bosnia becoming another Palestine and of the extremism many have already fallen into?

I am afraid that Karadzic's idea that the peoples of B&H will never be able to live together again is slowly being realized. When once I told him that the idea of cantonization would not succeed, he answered - "you'll see that it will". I am afraid that such hatred will take over that people will begin to kill each other on the street with no consideration of political affiliation, but only of nationality. When surnames become uniform, this must be the most terrible thing that can happen. Those who battered Sarajevo for days could have finished the job in a couple of weeks and razed it to the ground. However, they are doing it slowly and systematically, taking months, so that even the strongest will be persuaded to give up the idea of life together. From this perspective it is difficult to see what could bring people together again, even though I have always believed that from every sorrow and misfortune, a glimmer of hope comes through. I was recently in Zenica and when I fell ill I was examined by a doctor, a Serb. I had no qualms about him for a moment, nor that he would do his job according to the ethics of medicine and humanity.