Family Clan Rule

VREME: More than ten months have passed since you and Josip Manolic and Slavko Degoricija defected to the opposition so to speak. What (if anything) important changes have taken place in the meantime?

MESIC: We can't say that nothing has happened. First of all, with our appearance the opposition strengthened and has become far more convincing than it was before. Without us it was ineffectual and powerless. Now the opposition is felt in the Sabor (parliament). Secondly, and this is more important, the Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) is not as powerful as it used to be, it has been shaken and the first erosive events have taken place, and this continues.

VREME: But Tudjman is no less powerful, on the contrary?

MESIC: He is less powerful as far as the party is concerned, because he doesn't play such a big role anymore. He is powerful because he has the intelligence service, the police, the army which is loyal to the HDZ and his private economy. His family clan has at its disposal great potential, his friends too. Considering that the party no longer enjoys the power it used too, at the next elections, which will be regular or early, the balance of forces will change - thanks to us. It would have been very difficult without us.

VREME: Do you think that (at the next elections) a civic coalition of democratic parties will enter the game?

MESIC: Yes, we will form a broad coalition, and negotiations are already under way. But, the HDZ already has sufficient means and mechanisms to break up a coalition in various ways: by buying parties, trials, blackmail, and who knows what else they are capable of in order to remain in power. We'll leave it to time and see what happens when elections are scheduled.

VREME: Do you think that if a moderate coalition came into power, that Croatia's foreign policy would change, above all with regard to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

MESIC: Of course, because one of the basic points on which we disagreed with Tudjman was the policy concerning Bosnia; actually the policy of Bosnian Croats which Tudjman certainly influenced a great deal. But when I say "Croats whom Tudjman can influence", then I'm thinking of the HDZ leadership in B-H. More precisely, in the so-called Herzeg-Bosnia.

VREME: In his day Tudjman was a general staff officer and a professional, and that's where he learned the art of personnel shuffles. He moves people around and promotes them when it serves his purpose, but always at the right moment. It must be admitted that he does have a talent for this sport. What do you think?

MESIC: Yes, he's learned the art well. And with regard to the party, this model is called Stalinism. Even more. The Politburo ruled then, but Tudjman doesn't have that. He has a group of yes-men who carry out orders with clerical obedience.

VREME: How to avoid that such a situation becomes a proven model for a long lasting rule, because he obviously has no intention of letting power out of his hands?

MESIC: That's precisely what Tudjman thinks, that through various privileges given to party yes-men, he'll be able to stay in power for ever. He doesn't understand that this will last only until the next elections. His charisma has faded, the people are disappointed with the way policy is being conducted, especially in Bosnia where it has proved to be catastrophic. The basis which existed once, has gone.

VREME: But his policy in B-H is still standing strong!

MESIC: That's what you think. That's only the case with those in the top leadership. But they are not the whole nation. They represent a small circle of people and interests.

VREME: A year has passed since the Washington agreement. In the past few months nationalist radicals in the ruling party have started returning to their initial positions.

MESIC: When we opened the problem a year ago and asked questions linked to B-H, we said that it was a catastrophe both for Bosnia and for Croatia, because there were attempts at dividing up B-H with Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic. What else is it but the partitioning up of B-H when a Serbian state is formed on one side and a Croatian state on the other. I ask you, what is left for the Bosnjaks? They either have to fight for a single B-H and that means they have two enemies, or say: "If the Serbs don't want us, then the Croats don't want us either, so let's go look for our own space", which is very dangerous and has led to this catastrophe. I must say that I am happy that there are a lot of supporters of a single B-H among both Croats and Serbs. The world looked at it from the point of view - three crazy tribes fighting each other, and whoever wins... Perhaps the tribe with the greatest quantity of arms, whoever has the most elements for a military victory. But, perhaps at that time there wasn't a B-H Army, but the situation has altered greatly now. At the time we said that such a policy in B-H was right only for Milosevic and that Tudjman had become an element of his policy; Tudjman rides on Milosevic's tail, because he has always been a step behind Milosevic. When Milosevic created the so-called Serb Krajina, then Tudjman came up with Herzeg-Bosnia.

I always said that the Croats in B-H had made a mistake when they overlooked one fact - that the B-H Army is invincible and that it is necessary to team up with the winning side. Croatia didn't know this or didn't wish to admit it. It's a moot question if Croatia understands this today. According to some assessments, the B-H Army has 250,000 men who are being trained by highly-educated professional officers. It is true that weapons are lacking, but this will be fixed, like all technical matters.

VREME: Tudjman is obviously not giving up the idea of a confederation with Bosnia, at least that's what he said recently.

MESIC: All that's part of Milosevic's kitchen. Imagine if one part of B-H linked up with Croatia into a single political entity, without the prior will of the citizens who wish it, and on the other hand if Bosnian Krajina enters into a confederation with Serbia, what then? Some new Yugoslavia, or what? Of course, when this crazy war ends, we'll all look for business partners in the area of the former Yugoslavia and Croatia will want to have trade links with Serbia and Montenegro. Bosnia-Herzegovina will have to do the same. But before mutual economic relations are achieved, we will have to establish some political form in which we will behave like citizens, and not like nationalist vampires of this or that nation.

VREME: What will the future coalition of democratic parties (left and center) do to change the existing situation when the voters entrust it with power?

MESIC: Above all, create the most important pre-conditions for freedom and democracy. This means a radical separation of three constitutive state authorities from one another. The judiciary from the executive authority and the law-makers, the law-makers from the executive authority. If we don't do this, then another maniac will come along who will wish to unite all three. If this division doesn't exist, then there is no control and you end up with Bolshevism. We will then annul all the conditions for a national economic betrayal which have manifested themselves through a bad law on privatization which has enabled a handful of people to buy up all of Croatia. This of course will be followed with the legal prosecution of the thieves, even if they are in top authority. This is why laws and courts exist, and let them prove that they didn't steal. Gojko Susak came to Croatia with a few thousand German Marks in his pocket and he slept anywhere. All he had was an old jacket, and now they're saying that he gave three million dollars to Croatia. He might have, but he certainly didn't give the money as a present. When money from Croats in the diaspora started arriving, he, just like the Tudjman family, was in charge of it all. Croats abroad are now asking where this money has gone, because a great deal of it just disappeared. Minister of Transport and Communications Mudrinic robbed the state of 500,000 DEM in one day. And since he has two or three passports, he can run any time he likes, and it will be very difficult to institute legal proceedings against him. They're just ordinary thieves. And Tudjman always defends himself by saying that he didn't know anything and that it's not his fault. Like it's not in his power. This nation doesn't deserve this.

VREME: There are jokes in Croatia that there are two states -Croatia and the Ministry of Defence. Is there any truth in this?

MESIC: Unfortunately, yes. This is another big problem. I just hope that they won't use this power for political showdowns inside Croatia. Don't forget, this is partly a private army. Bobetko has his army, Susak and Tudjman theirs, somebody else his...